South African History Archive, Collection Number: AL3292

Project Name: Anti Privatisation Forum
Date of Interview: 2010-03-18
Location of Interview: Johannesburg
Length of interview: 1:49:14
Interviewer: Dale McKinley
Interviewee: Richard ‘Bricks’ Mokolo

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Dale: Okay thanks very much first Bricks for doing the interview. Much appreciated. I am just going to ask you a few questions to get to know a little bit about yourself. Can you just first of all state your full name?
Bricks:  ‘Bricks’ my nickname, Mokolo is my surname.
D.: Where were you born?
B.: I was born on the 16th of June 1959 in Evaton, in the Vaal Triangle.
D.: And since you were born, where have you lived?
B.: I lived in, as I was born in Evaton I grew up there, we were living as sub tenants from the stand owners of Evaton. My parents moved from there to Sebokeng, now I grew up in Sebokeng, from Sebokeng I moved to Orange Farm in 1992.
D.: And you have been here since then?
B.: Since 1992 I’ve been here.
D.: Okay and just tell us s little bit about your family, are you married do you have children?
B.: Yes I am married I have two children, two boys.
D.: How old are they?
B.: Twenty seven and twenty one.
D.: Okay and what about your schooling, what schooling have you had?
B.: I attended a Catholic school from the primary level, I went to Tiro High School and I ended up Standard 9 and from there I attended other informal educational institutes.

D.: Okay and just a little bit about your work history as well.
B.: My work history. I worked for a company called Cape Gate from 1978 till ’81 and from there I’ve never worked.

D.: So you were obviously doing some kind - though you were not fully employed – work, but what is that you’ve done mostly since then in terms of your activities?
B.: Since then I worked for community based organisations. I became a field worker of the Justice and Peace Commission of the Catholic Bishops Conference. And then I worked for the advice office in the Vaal. I worked for the Detainees Parents Support Committee in 1985 and ’86 cause I was active in the UDF structures in the Vaal.

D.: Okay now just describe to me how it is that you became politicised or political activist?
B.: As I stated earlier on that I was involved with the Justice and Peace Commission for the Catholic Bishops Conference and then the conditions we were living in the black townships and in 1983 when there was a strike against the Tri Cameral Parliament elections the call that was taken by UDF against the elections of the Tri Cameral Parliament - black parliament, the black local authorities.  I became more involved in politics and then 1984 there was a uprising in the Vaal but I was not in the leadership  of the ’84 but I was part of the community by participating and giving out pamphlets and attending meetings.  1984 after the arrest of the leaders, the Tri Cameral, Delmas trial and other trials that took place I became elected in 1985 as a Chairperson of the Vaal  Education Crisis Committee. Now that’s how I became involved in politics.

D.: Alright and tell us also a little bit how you first became involved in the APF and the formation of the APF right at the beginning?
B.: Ja, in the APF say in the year 2000, there was a winter school of Khanya College. It was in 1999 I think the first winter school, I attended the winter school of Khanya College and some of the topics that were set by Khanya College during that winter school were mentioning a lot of things about globalisation, privatisation of the basic services. And then Anti Privatisation Forum was introduced as an alternative movement to oppose privatisation in 2000 and in the year 2000 I started trying to link myself with the other communities like Soweto, SECC to get more, to hear more about the organisations that are opposing globalisation. And then in 2002 we formed Orange Farm Water Crisis Committee and then I introduced Orange Farm Water Crises Committee to the Anti Privatisation Forum so that we can create the relationship and working and become an affiliate of the Anti Privatisation Forum.

D.: Okay and just tell us … why did you feel the need to be part of forming the Orange Farm Water Crises Committee here in this community?
B.: That was because there was lack of serious delivery and the development that came under the name of job creation development in the community. Through water pre paid meters is where I have realised that the community of Orange Farm is going to suffer and then we conducted the research to see because there was SANCO then and what SANCO is doing about these pre- paid meters, SANCO was no longer representing the people but they became part of the system. And then I realised that there is no structure that is representing the people anymore and then there was a lot of electricity cut offs taking place in Orange Farm and you see SANCO members being sub contracted or companies like Eskom cutting off electricity for the people. Now we wanted to build the organisation that will defend the poor people who cannot afford to buy pre paid electricity card and also to maintain the access water to pre paid meters. That is how we started realising that all this pre paid system of electricity and water is pure privatisation of basic services.

D.: And how did you understand privatisation at that point in terms of, we use that word Anti Privatisation, but how is it that it was felt specifically here for people on the ground and in Orange Farm?
B.: Yes to understand that because there were debates, there is this thing of public sector, public assets, ‘public’  ‘public’ and then public is under the control of the state, like the public hospitals everything we knew was that this is ‘public’, ‘public, ‘public’. When they introduced these pre paid meters and it also became more clear when the water supply in Orange Farm is directed to Johannesburg Water and then Johannesburg Water registered as a Pty Ltd realising that now Pty Ltd is a company and managed by Suez Lyonnaise, a multinational corporate from France and then we realised that no, people are making profit out of basic services

D.: I mean you called it Orange Farm Water Crises Committee, so it was to deal specifically with - at that immediate point - the crises of water or was it as you say encompassing other issues as well?
B.: Encompassing other issues, but because there was something needed to mobilise people around it the burning issue, now pre paid water meters was new. It was not like electricity pre paid because the electricity pre paid when it was installed it was like something like development because people who didn’t have electricity who were using the candle and when they brought the pre paid electricity system in Orange Farm it was like some development you know because government is supporting development. And it’s by that people are living in shacks, but you become a poor person even in shack who has got electricity at least each and every person wants electricity but with the water pre paid meter, because water was there before through communal stand pipes and then when the introduction of this pre paid meters came we thought that development that we were expecting was to see government providing or actually the City of Johannesburg providing water and sanitation without any conditions of people paying through pre paid meters. And they will realise now that this is something that is going to destroy or change the lives of the people.

D.: Okay and then you say you got introduced to the workshops and everything through the APF. Then how did the Orange Farm Water Crisis Committee, how did it become part of the APF from that point on 2002?
B.: Before 2002 there was a international conference in Durban, the Anti Racism Conference and then as Orange Farm Community we took part, we were a part of that Anti Racism Conference and Xenophobia. And then when we came back we were preparing for WSSD, World Summit on Sustainable Development, whereby all international social movements, you know governments coming to South Africa and it was easy to prepare and to understand Anti Privatisation Forum because there were meetings, workshops, seminars planned to prepare for the WSSD and then as Orange Farm Water Crisis Committee we were part, we took part in organising all those for that event.

D.: Okay and just tell us a little bit about … how the Orange Farm Water Crisis Committee is structured, how is it formed, what’s the organisation like on the ground?
B.: Ja as a Social Movement or Crisis Committee, Orange Farm Water Crisis Committee didn’t operate with constitution because we didn’t want something that will bind us to focus on certain issues because it is a crisis. And then we open our operation to deal with all the problems that are facing the community and it was also operating as advice committee because now people were bringing all different social problems to the Orange Farm Water Crisis Committee and when it was formed we tried to look into this structuring the organisation and see other structures of the NGO’s, the CPO’S. But with the Crisis Committee we said ‘no we don’t need same structures but we need people who will be coordinating campaigns’. Now we had a Chairperson, Deputy Secretariat and a Deputy Secretary we didn’t have a Treasurer in the Orange Farm Water Crisis Committee because we didn’t have money and then when we were thinking of challenging the crisis that people are facing, the burning issues and then it was formed at the Roman Catholic Church - Saint Luanda - in Stretford Extension 47. And the Orange Farm Water Crisis we expanded to other extensions because of the demand of the people because now people were coming into the church and report the cases and then what we are doing encouraging people from the different extensions to build up committees that will be conducting a survey around their needs or the challenges that people from that particular extension face. And then we were meeting every Wednesday as members of different extensions to share and to see what is a common challenges that are facing people from different extensions and then from that extensions we had people who were not exactly the Executive Committee or what, but the Working Committee for people to come together and see if there is a need of calling for an action or writing a pamphlet, distributing a pamphlet. You know we didn’t have office where we operate from and we didn’t have facilities like a building, you know telephone but because we had space from the Catholic Church where our advice office for Human Rights was operating from. Now we were informing people if they want to meet with the old WCC (Water Crisis Committee) because the paralegals of the advice office were also members of the Orange Farm Water Crisis Committee.  When people need advice, they need assistance from the Orange Farm Water Crisis Committee they were leaving the messages at the advice office. That’s how we were operating and then on the part of gender, because we have community based organisations that are dealing with different sectors, the HIV and AIDS, the food security, pre-schools and we have started mobilising all these sectors also to participate in the Water Crisis meetings. That’s how Orange Farm Water Crisis Committee is formed up.

D.: And it still more or less operates the same as it has from the beginning?
B.: it is still operating same as the beginning ja.

D.: Okay how would you describe the main goals or objectives of the Orange Farm Water Crisis Committee?  Over the years should we say, there’s been something as you say to help people with their immediate problems, is there something beyond that or has anything developed since the start of your struggles over the last several years? 
B.: Yes, what have been developed was to make people aware of the policies of the government, because people when they are fighting for a certain crisis, it is only the focus of water and then when the water issue is resolved what is the next? All the crisis committees were focused on a certain issue and then we realised that the challenge is not only that issue but it is the system by itself and linking all these social problems with global struggle, you know the globalisation and we are so fortunate, I personally was fortunate through the support of the Anti Privatisation Forum to attend some of the international meetings World Trade Organisational conferences where governments were making deals you know around privatising basic services and then the influence of the World Bank, the influence of the World Bank and the…

D.: IMF.
B.: World Bank and the IMF. Now all those things are structures that are not exposed in the communities. People in Orange Farm when you talk about the World Bank you don’t know what that is. When you talk about the World Trade Organisation they don’t know about, you know the World Economic Forum. It is only the Minister of Trade, the Presidents and then there is not transparency in the country to come and report back to the people about all these international conferences. People they only see when the Ministers or the President going to Geneva, going to England but they don’t know what they are going to do. They think they are going to represent them and they are going to invite the, you know the investors, but how that affects their lives people are not aware. Like for instance the question of the debate that the government is running away from of nationalisation, capitalism. Now what we have achieved  as Orange Farm, we created space from the community to start realising that beyond the government there are other structures where the government is accounting, the government is not accounting to the voters, it is not the voters will be considered only during the election period, but after the elections, who is taking the decisions ? And the other thing that is what we see as an achievement in Orange Farm is the struggle of you know, blaming the Ward Councillors, the Mayors without looking into the system. Because now the shift from the government, you know we had that campaign or call of ‘Fire the Mayor’, but its no longer the actual movements it is the government saying fire the Mayors and then because now is where the government realise that the focus is on the individuals. If the people who chose the Mayor, even they fight but after changing the Mayor, changing the Councillor things are becoming cool for a certain period, an example of what happened, is what happened in Balfour, when Zuma went there, Malema and the other Ministers went to celebrate firing the Mayor with bottles of wines, but after the Mayor nothing happened, no delivery meaning that it is not the problem of these individuals but it is a system by itself. Now our main, main focus is to educate people about the system.

D.: So you were saying specifically being part of the APF helped make that connections and expose you and others to things much beyond, far beyond Orange Farm?
B.: Helped a lot, because even members of the APF when they talk, you can listen, you can hear about people who understand their story because from the RDP policy, GEAR policy, ASGISA you know, because from the APF there is a lot of education and information about the economics, political economics of the government, how the Government is shifting? Why the government is shifting? Who is pressurising the government? Who has got powers between the business and the voters? You know because every time now after the elections there is war between the business, its fighting for its space and the community also will be coming in and say we demand one, two, three, now the government is not actually knowing where to go ja, and that is where you will find the government shifting from the poor running with the business. This is how the Anti Privatisation Forum assisted its members to understand the local and international politics.

D.: Okay and just tell us … as you became involved in the APF but also from the Orange Farm component how was the response from the ANC and the state to the new struggles that were happening in those early years, how did that shape things, the response from the state and the ANC and from, the government itself?
B.: Ja, after the pressure of the Social Movements, the Anti Privatisation Forum, there were a lot of you know response from the government. Like for instance the indigency policy where the government was trying to respond by you know using its divide and rule of providing services for the poor and then the poor must come up and declare themselves, to come and sign. And then there were a lot of sponsors that our government also introduced, some of the projects through public works is temporary jobs of six months, that’s how the government was trying to respond. And then trying to fight back against the social movement to divide people in the communities and then also by introducing these community workers, you know.  I think those are the ways of government trying to respond by saying we are doing this we are doing that but knowing very well that this is not going to work. And then for free education saying that it is education for the poor, the free education for the poor, some of the schools, government will provide free education for certain schools, not for all schools. You know government was trying to respond to the demands of the Social Movements like the Anti Privatisation Forum.

D.: And what about the more negative responses? Those were some of - you could say - positive things that they were trying to do, but what about how they responded particularly to direct actions and protests that happened within Orange Farm as well as from the APF’s side?
B.: That is known by the barrel of a gun you know bringing the police with guns, rubber bullets, bird shot, tear gas, water cannon and then shooting, arresting and then threatening some of the leaders. Like for instance I was chased by the National Intelligence Agency you know before the WSSD. They knocked at my door every time and sometimes they came and I was not around, I was in Hong Kong attending the World Water Forum in Hong Kong. When I came back I was told there were Intelligence walking after me and then they left their telephone numbers, they left their addresses where I can meet them at the Head Quarters of the police station in Vereeniging. But when I came back they pushed for meeting with me trying to understand more about Anti Privatisation Forum, trying to make me scared to work with the Anti Privatisation Forum and then also using the very same old style of spying  on people or building spies, inform about the preparations about World Summit on Sustainable Development because they were worried about that. And then also there was a campaign here in Orange Farm on Human Rights Day of marching with the electricity pre paid meters on the street, people taking out their pre paid meters and then I was also harassed by the police. They used the very same apartheid old style of you know harassing, people who are educating people or bring alternative information to the people.

D.: And how did that, as you saying the attacks, the arrests the teargas the spying everything, how did that impact on the community itself, on the organisation, did it change things, did it make any difference to people at all or how did it impact in terms of the politics and the way in which we went about struggling?
B.: Ja that comes from the individual people with the understanding of the struggle but I think most of the people of Orange Farm, after experiencing this harassment from the police they realised that the truth does not want you to carry a gun or protect it with a gun. And then they realised that why government always when people are fighting for their basic service, for their rights you will find police coming you know and scaring people with arrest. But what motivated people more is when they realise that even when they take them to court, tomorrow morning they come back. There was a lot of waste of time where police you know didn’t even have a case, police didn’t have a case against people who are protesting because they take you there and then we paid bail for other comrades, you will find we paid bail today and next time when they appear the case is dismissed. Now it’s just only just to make people scared but that also helped a lot because people realised that this harassment is also helping to motivate the people. 

D.: Okay, now you mentioned early on that after the Orange Farm Water Crisis Committee joined the APF and you yourself as well as others were exposed to a range of international things that also began to impact didn’t it on the Orange farm Water Crisis Committee in its own relationships with international agencies. How did that help Orange Farm in terms of its growth and its ability to do the things that it’s been doing in the community?
B.: That helped Orange Farm Water Crisis Committee a lot because any struggles that take place from Orange Farm in particular, it becomes known internationally and we receive international solidarity. You know there are people from abroad who are making statements, supporting our struggles and people from Orange Farm they even see that they are not alone in the struggle, it is an international struggle and when people are visiting Orange Farm from the international world they are having an experience with them. An example is where we had a seminar around water services…and then looking into the water supply - how many litres of water are supplied from the municipality to the people, individual people, twenty five litres per person and then when other people from Italy telling you we are using eight hundred litres per person per day. South Africa is not actually a dry country and then people, there is water but there is no access of water if you don’t have money and then people start realising that there’s a problem of water and then they struggle, the difference between the developing countries and the under developed countries and they start measuring South Africa as one of the country that is claiming to meet the standard of the global world while it is not providing people with the very same standard. Because you will meet the standard as long as you got money, because when you don’t have money you cannot, its only the rich that can get better services.

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